Kratom and Regulatory Corruption with John Bush

Logan (00:19):

Welcome to today. We're talking about an herb. I often get asked a lot about, and really honestly, haven't used all that much. I'm talking about kratom, not only are we talking about this earth who is good for what to be on the lookout for all that stuff, but really why? This is what I call a gray zone herb regarding the legalities and the regulatory agencies and all the shenanigans going on there. So today I have joining me, John Bush, who is it, radical activist, entrepreneur and father of two based in Austin, Texas. He owns and operates brave botanicals, which offers high quality kratom and CBD. In 2014, he founded the freedom cell network, which currently has over 5,000 people working together through small groups to secure their sovereignty. He is the host of the live free now show let's jump in. Welcome John Bush to the health sovereign podcast. Great to have you here today. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, this is should be a fun call. I get asked about this topic a whole lot, not about freedom and you know, despite all my herbalism experience, it's not an area I've gone deeply into myself, so glad to have you here so we can dive into it. My first question for you is how did you arrive in this field?

John (01:33):

Well, I was I've been an activist for quite some time and really into natural health in my own personal life and just sharing with those around me. And as a Liberty activist, I was really into help freedom. In fact, it, it was like, especially upsetting that the government would work to limit access to what people put in their body or even put people in jail. And in cages for consuming plant medicines is that it was especially egregious. I thought on the behalf of the government for that stuff. And for a time I ran a underground bookstore. It was literally underground in a basement and we sold like conspiracy books, libertarian literature, and we also sold health products. And of course the health products were the main revenue. And so a friend of mine started packaging and selling, kratom. And so we had it there at the shop and it didn't sell a whole lot and I hadn't even tried it myself.

John (02:22):

But when the DEA tried to ban kratom in 2016, I was like, well, what's up with this? Maybe there's something to it. And also at that time, because we stayed open, a lot of other vendors closed their doors. We stayed open and leaned into it because they never ended up making it illegal. I started to really learn a whole lot about how it impacts people and gives them their life back and their health back and control over their bodies back. So that was pretty profound for me. Also at this time I started taking in and experimenting with it and found that it added value to my life as well. This was around 20 2016, 2015.

Logan (03:00):

Yeah. Yeah. That was the first time. It was like when there was all that hubbub about it and talk abandon and whatnot, and sounded like many people found out about it in the first place. It's kind of that interesting effect that we see happen with censorship.

John (03:12):

The trends show a spot, huge spike in searches for kratom at that time. So that means sometimes

Logan (03:18):

Because they don't ban uninteresting stuff, right. To get rid of the stuff that isn't at least worth taking a look at the good stuff. I'd say a lot of the confusion that occurs with kratom is because there's the different variety of, so I'd like you to speak to that. Like some are good for going to sleep, whereas other ones are energizing. So can you mention the different varieties and why they may have these pretty different effects?

John (03:42):

Sure. Yeah. Well first just what it is real quick, if there's folks that aren't familiar kratom as a member of

the coffee family, although it has no caffeine it's made from the powderized leaves of the kratom evergreen tree, which has grown primarily in Southeast Asia, we import ours from Indonesia and there's a few different varieties. There are green, white, and red. There's also gold and yellow, but those are the main three ones. And the color comes from the color of the veins the drying process, and also just the nature of the trees. It's not as specific as a cannabis strain for example, which is like cultivated and coveted and protected. But there's a tendency for the same effects when it comes to a lighter vein and similar effects when it comes to red. So I actually have some here to demonstrate this is a green variety, and this is a red variety, and this is a white variety.

John (04:39):

You can kind of see the red is a little bit darker. The whites a little bit lighter. The green is kind of in the middle. So the red varieties help a lot of people with pain and relaxation and they help with sleep as well. Many people take the red varieties instead of opioids, and a lot of people take it and, you know, find that it doesn't have the crazy side effects and it still helps with the pain. On the opposite side would be the white varieties. They tend to be a little more uplifting, energetic, good for stress and anxiety. Good. As a social lubricant, I've heard so many stories of people that have quit drinking whether it was socially or folks that struggled with alcoholism, they were able to quit drinking by drinking, kratom instead. And then the green varieties, they tend to be the most popular.

John (05:22):

They're good for stress and anxiety, especially they're more similar to the white than the red, although they tend to have a little bit more euphoria. Right. And so the cool thing about kratom is, if you take a very small amount, like half a teaspoon or so, or a couple capsules, the effects are really subtle. And just kind of like a little background effect. If you take a larger amount, there can be a little bit of euphoria, but it's nothing like a state change or disassociative or necessarily even psychoactive. So it's something that people can incorporate in their lives and not really get high or really change their state so much so they can go about their day.

Logan (05:59):

Right? Yeah. I think that background cause working with herbs, I like in the psychoactive substances, like silicide mushrooms or whatever, that's getting hit over the head with a sledgehammer, then we have other, like you have came at me, all right. Most people aren't going to notice anything. So kratom. It may be more in that mid range of there. And I think yeah, being able to kind of run that gamut can be a useful way for people to understand herbs in the first place because you know, it's not well understood in our world. Sure. Can you talk about the quality, the sourcing and sustainability of freedom?

John (06:34):

Yeah. So most of the cranium that we have in the States comes in from Indonesia and it's grown in like Creighton farms, but it's almost wild grown essentially because it grows so well. So they're just big trees that have the leaves and the leaves are what are taken and powderized and dried up. So we've been using the same farmer in Indonesia for three years now, the same guy, really high quality stuff that a lot of my clients comment that they've never had any, like, it's definitely not like the stuff in the smoke shops, for example. But I asked early on, you know, is there any chemicals on this? Is it organic? What's the story with that? There's no chemicals or pesticides on most kratom, right? Because it just grows so easily in that region that there's no need for it. It's just forest and forest. So it's all natural. It is sustainable. It's, it's naturally grown there and in that region, so I it's, it's great. And it's sustainable for the community. Especially there there's a lot of farms and villages that have had a great increase in their quality of life, standard of living and their financial circumstances because the American market for kratom has really exploded. So it's cool to help those, those folks to gain more independence and wealth.

Logan (07:48):

Absolutely. So what is the kind of the differentiator you're talking about a kratom and people may find in other places, what makes a low quality create versus a high quality one?

John (07:58):

Well, one thing, all of our stuff is tested by the way, too, from our supplier. So it's tested for heavy metals, it's tested for impurities, salmonella and stuff. The FDA ran all these stories about [inaudible] salmonella outbreaks. Really. It was like one or two vendors, but they try to blow it up out of proportion. I think it's the farm that we use. They just keep putting out consistent high quality stuff. Maybe it's the region that they're in or the cultivation process. Another thing whenever you buy kratom from big companies or buy it at the head shop, like some of the leading, probably leading folks, when it comes to volume, they're buying in like huge, huge, huge bulk amounts importing it, it sits in a warehouse, they package it up and then it sits at the shelves because they buy a whole lot more. Right. my particular source or my business, it is growing and scaling, but we're still constantly bringing in pretty routinely the fresh stuff from Indonesia. So I think that has something to do with it also, I will say however that it does keep for quite some time. So yeah. I, I just think that there's something about bringing it in fresh, consistently from Indonesia, from the source that makes it makes a big difference also. Yeah.

Logan (09:06):

Do you think any of them, other suppliers may be cutting their material, right. If it's just a leaf, they can throw in some other leaves and it's gonna water it down.

John (09:14):

I don't know that that's happening. I mean, it could be it'd be difficult to know if that was happening. I think again, it's just so abundant that I don't think that there's, that happens often and there's stories like cut with fentanyl and stuff like that. I don't why that, why the vendor even bothered to do that? Yeah. Like that'd be, wow, that's some crazy kratom you got there. But I think that maybe those are things that happen once in a blue moon and folks that want to discredit, kratom, take it and run with it. For the most part. I think most people are selling pretty, pretty pure plant matter.

Logan (09:49):

Excellent. Okay. What are the best ways to take kratom? And I guess I'm matching it to the different varieties would be useful.

John (09:57):

Sure. So me personally, I like to drink it with water. So I will take about 12 to 16 ounces. I like to put it in my Yeti here. I'm drinking water right now ever. And put in, I usually do like two good sized teaspoons, although I wouldn't encourage anyone to start with that amount. It's a maybe moderate amount, maybe moderate on a little bit on the high end, not too crazy. And so I'll put it in my 12 to 16 ounces of water, mix it up and then I'll drink it slowly over the course of about two hours or so by then, it'll be maybe two thirds of it has gone. There's a third left. I'll add more water and continue to kind of milk it slowly. That's what I like to do because it kind of prolongs the effects. If it's someone's first time, I also encouraged to drink it with water as well, but maybe start with a smaller amount, like half a teaspoon.

John (10:47):

And the reason for that, I also encourage them to do it on a full stomach. If you look on the internet, most people will say to do it on an empty stomach, but being in this space for quite some time, there has been a small handful of people that have experienced some nausea or said that it made them feel antsy or just kind of weird while it is rare. I like to encourage people to drink it slowly, that way, instead of taking a full dose, you know, or even taking the whole half teaspoon at once, they're able to slowly drink it and then listen to their body, experience the effects. If they feel weird, then maybe back off of it. If

they feel like, Oh, this is, I kind of feel something, then it feels kind of nice and you can continue to drink it.

John (11:23):

So that's one way, a lot of people like capsules. So it tastes kind of like bitter green tea or maybe a little bit like macho. It's an acquired taste. I like the taste of it now. And it's like, it's like a fine wine. Oh, this must've been, he's been in Indonesia. But some people like capsules super convenient. You're like taking it at college or you're studying or you're you're at your workplace. That might be nice. The difference between drinking and in the capsules that drinking, it tends to be more potent. As far as the effect, capitals tend to be more, they slowly come into effect. Maybe they last a little bit longer. It's more of a subtle approach. And then some people do, what's called a toss and wash, which I would encourage you not to do. If it's your first time, they'll take their dose on a spoon, throw it in their mouth and then chug some water. But if you do this it's so finally powderized it like coats, the inside of your mouth. It's it's crazy.

Logan (12:15):

Can be a choking hazard. Yeah. We can do that with some of our herbs and sometimes it doesn't go down.

John (12:21):

That's the hardcore way. And then there's something called parachuting where people, people use toilet paper. There's other things that are like dissolvable. That would be better that people use after you put your dose in, you wrap the toilet paper and a little dissolvable paper, put it in your mouth and you, and then you drink it from there. How those are heard of that one. That's interesting. Yeah. Parachuting that's, that's pretty much the way some, there has been people that talk about smoking it. I think that's crazy. I don't think people actually really do that, but that's about, that's about it. That's how to take.

Logan (12:51):

Hmm, excellent. So let's talk about the tolerance with this. I know it'd been used and we're going to talk more about opioids for sure. But it being used to help people with addiction is kratom, have addictive qualities itself, should people cycle it, take breaks. That sort of thing.

John (13:10):

Great question. And as a creator, I'm a vendor. I like to be open and honest about this because it can be habit forming to put it lightly. People can become physically dependent. I like to differentiate between the word addiction and dependency. There's this guy, Dr. Gabor Montay. Who's a medical doctor, but he does a lot of work when it comes to addiction, especially with homeless people and folks that are really struggling with trauma. And he says that the definition of addiction is you're physically dependent on something. And even though you know, that it's causing harm to yourself or you're causing harm to others, like stealing from someone or taking from your mom's purse or whatever, you keep doing it, knowing that it's not good for you, that's an addiction. Then you have a physical dependency. So people know there's many people that are physically dependent on caffeine, for example, right?

John (14:05):

So if you take something consistently regularly daily for an extended period of time, multiple weeks, multiple months, especially then your body starts to develop a tolerance in that your receptors need more of the substance in order to bring about the same desired effect. And so what happens when that tolerance starts to come in is people find themselves taking more and more and more, same story with all sorts of drug weather, whether it's alcohol or cocaine or opioids for that matter. And so the thing to do to mitigate that is to take breaks. If you, if you can, as often as you can. Now, there's some people that are taking it for severe chronic pain. And if they take a break, then they can't function in life, right? So if you can take breaks maybe once every two weeks or a month, you take three to four days off.

John (14:52):

This gives your body a time to reset and gives your liver a little bit of a break, right? And you know, a lot of people would say that it's bad for your liver. And then there was a lot of FDA propaganda saying that I've found very few instances of scientific studies or anecdotal evidence saying that it actually did harm the liver, but I can see if somebody has really taken a whole, whole, whole lot. Another thing is you can cycle through different strains. So if you've been using the green manga, for example, consistently for awhile, and it starts to subtly lose its potency, then you could switch over to something else. But really the best thing is to do is to use it responsibly because there are a good number of people. It was a big eye-opener when I discovered this, read this sub Reddit thread about addiction to kratom and or dependency to kratom.

John (15:35):

And there's a lot of people that really do experience some pretty severe withdrawal symptoms. Some people try to sugar coat it and say, it's like a kin to not having your caffeine where you get a headache or whatever. But if you are taking a whole, whole lot of kratom, like there's some people that take a whole ounce in one day or more than a whole ounce, this normally would last two weeks, one to three weeks, even longer. If you take a smaller amount, then you can develop some pretty severe withdrawal symptoms like headaches, restless, leg, vomiting, flu like symptoms. And so it's really important to use it responsibly. Now that being said, I always make it a point to share that for someone that was formerly addicted to heroin or someone that was formally addicted to Percocet or Oxycontin or fentanyl, and then they use kratom to overcome the withdrawal symptoms from that, then they find themselves dependent on kratom.

John (16:28):